Who OWNS the passenger trains operating in our (South West) area (RoSCo)s?
How long are their contracts? Do they include maintenance?

GWR
Classes 150, 158, 159, 165, 166, 175, 230, 800, 802 and class 57 and carriages

SWR
Classes 158 and 159

Crosscountry
Classes 220 and 221

Names such as Porterbook, Eversholt, Hitachi, Angel Trains and First.

 
First own some IETs and I'm sure their serial numbers can be found somewhere on this forum

Hitachi own the remainder

 

Are you sure about that?

 

I think some of the 36 class 802s are owned by Eversholt (but were ordered by First Group, rather than by DfT), Hitachi have a maintenance contract, GWR lease them from Eversholt

I think the class 800s are owned by Agility Trains, which is part owned by Hitachi, part owned by AXA and part by GLIL Infrastructure (an investment by consortium of pension funds)

EDIT It is Agility Trains West Ltd, which is wholly owned subsidiary of Agility Trains (MidCo) Ltd, which in turn is wholly owned subsidiary of Agility Trains West (Holdings) Ltd, which in turn is subsidiary of joint venture where Hitachi hold 25%.  (complicated, but presumably works better to minimise tax etc)

 
From the backermost recesses of my memory, I seem to recall that HSBC owned some of them.

Or is that hogwash, II ? 

 

History, more like. Eversholt (one of the original ROSCOs from thew BR break-up) was owned by Midland Bank, which became part of HSBC, and was then sold off by them in 2010.

 
I did say it was in the backermost recesses of my (apparently failing) memory. 

 
Trying to work out a story ... distilled from https://weownit.org.uk/who-owns-our/railways


30 years is a long time in business.  My understanding is / was that the RoSCos initially took over a limited supply of trains that had limited capital value, but excellent rental value as they were hired to the Train Operating companies, resulting in excellent profits for the three companies who were under different ownership than that are today.  With the growth of rail passenger numbers, the shortage of trains became even more of an issue and there were further profits to be made by hiring out old stock to the highest bidder.   The success, if you like, of the franchised train operations in upping passenger numbers lead to a distorted market in train leasing.

30 years is a long time.  And whilst quite a few of the original trains that were sold (? how much was paid) to the RoSCos at privatisation are still with us - in our area, classes 150, 158, 165 and 166 - others such as the class 175 ("The fleet is owned by Angel Trains, who has leased the fleet to various train operators" according to WikiPedia) and class 800 and 802 are owned by Hitachi who built them, and who lease them to the train operators.  Classes such as 142 and 143 and HSTs (125, 43) which we have seen in the South West were withdrawn end-of-life; class 153 have gone from our area too though a few run on elsewhere in the dusk of their days.  And I have no idea how much profit is going to the now-owners based on the original privatisation, nor what their profit margins are on newer stock especially once maintenance costs are taken into account.

Names such as HSBC Rail crop up; they came in as part of the natural development of the market economy of a for-profit setup, with takeovers, buyouts and failures being part of the mix.  Such a setup may be excellent in terms of a many-supplier competitive market where one company take pick up business from another as they wither and as they blossom, but it's not, perhaps, a natural model in a market or industry which is monopolistic or close to it in nature. Further more, the little fish tend to be swallowed by the bigger ones and what started out as competitive intent became monopolies.

At Swindon, 25 to 30 years ago, you could catch passenger trains from TOCs Wales and West, Virgin, Thames Trains, and Great Western.  Great Western was taken over by First.  So then was Thames Trains. Wales and West became Wessex, which was combined with Thames Trains and Great Western as part of the Greater Western franchise that started on 1st April 2006, awarded to the First Group who have been running it since.  Virgin, with their Swindon to Birmingham service were only on our tracks for a short time.  The former Thames Train services from Bristol to Oxford were withdrawn (2004) because of "overcrowding on the tracks" but I say that in quotes because it looked like an excuse to move passengers onto less convenient, but more profitable operations still running on the same lines.  A more recent parallel away from Swindon was the withdrawal of the Bristol - Salisbury - Waterloo through services that were well used, pushing a goodly proportion of passengers onto Bristol - Paddington services which means changes for many intermediate passengers, and more expensive (= more income for rail) journeys.   Again, "Line Capacity" was an excuse, though I note the irony of the withdrawn trains being replaced by other trains - even using the same classes of rolling stock - subsidised by WECA and termination at Salisbury without even decent onward connections.

It should be noted that rail line capacity for passenger trains has changed over the years.  In our area, the demise of the coal industry and closure of Didcot power station has resulted in a significant increase in train paths available from South Wales through the Severn Tunnel to Swindon and Didcot, but the growth of long distance freight from Southampton to the Midlands and north, and stone traffic from Somerset headed east and north east has to some extent counterbalanced that; it has certainly added pressure in some places like on the capacity-limited Trowbridge to Chippenham line.  A part of this equation is the different characteristics of different train types - slow old coal wagons mixed with high speed trains lead to significant losses of capacity when one type followed the other.  These days the performances differ but less dramaically.

Some Related topics
- Privatisation of Rail Infrastructure from British Railways to Railtrack and then the renationalisation of that just over 20 years ago into Network Rail.
- Passenger Train operation itself under franchises, turning into management contracts, and those contracts being terminated / not renewed as the whole comes together ready for Great British Railways (nationalised) operations
- Freight train ownership and operation which is largely privatised and in my understanding will remain so
- Properties and concessions at stations (you can pay more for a coffee than for a ticket)

 

I recently read that if the Bristol Oxford service became hourly, then the section from Swindon to Didcot would be full. 

 
Exactly who owns the trains currently is a somewhat complicated subject but what I do think is that as part of the ongoing nationalisation of our railway, and the naissance of GBR, ownership of the rolling stock should have progressively transferred to within the industry.

However I do not advocate for one moment binning the existing ROSCO's because, aside from anything else, the country can't afford it. Just change the procurement model so all new trains are ordered by, and become the property of, GBR. And let the involvement of the ROSCO's run down as and when existing rolling stock reaches it's BBE date.

And if the people who know about this stuff conclude that farming out of the maintenance to either the train manufacturer or another private firm is the best option then do so but please, please, please make sure that the agreement is put together by people who actually understand contract management. Obviously if maintenance can be done cost effectively by existing depot teams then stick with them.

 
KI think that's what they are planning to happen already

 
The Treasury likes to delay costs as long as possible, even when it means they are higher.  I suspect they would rather maintain the current set up and have operating costs over the life of new trains rather than up front capital costs.

 
I remember going back to the days of the class 50 being ordered. They were leased to avoid the upfront costs. Nothing changes.

 
There was a slide shown at the Stakeholders conference recently that referred to a DfTO stock replacement Policy being formed for later 2026/7 to run in the 2030s outside the ROSCOS

 
With thanks for your update post, ChrisB, I have now added DfTO to our Coffee Shop forum 'abbreviations and acronyms' page.